vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
122684-yet-another-person-considering-a-return-page-2
Page 1, Page 2 Content I can only guess that some people want the raid environment but not the raid difficulty? I believe Blizzards "official" reason was to show the raid content to people who are not into raiding. Whether CRB does it at all and for the same reasons as Blizz or if they have other reasons of their own, doesnt really matter to me. I'm sure that if 10man or 15man raids is something CRB wants they will make it work. All that stuff i mentioned about making bombs smaller or keeping difficulty the same are just one of the possibilities. They could take your whole "coordination" thing and either throw that out the door or just require less of it for a smaller version of the raid. Also arent Shiphands and Adventures and all that 5man and under? so somebody is doing dungeons and wanting to do raids but they cant commit to a 20man raid schedule they should go back to 5mans? OK Got it... | |} ---- I think what we need to define is what "do raids" means. Many of us see the coordination required in the current WS raids as the core of the experience. You take take that out, and you really aren't "doing raids". You're doing exactly what is already available with the world bosses, and just putting it in an instance. So is that what people want? A 20 man instance that is a series of tank and spank bosses? If so, I see no reason Carbine couldn't create something like this, but it would be different than trying to change GA and DS into that. Again, X89 without the bombs is just running into a room filled with hexagons and killing a big green frog. The same is true with Kuralak without the eggs. Stripping of what makes them fun and interesting would not be cool. Better to create something new. | |} ---- You would probably have to ask some of the uber casuals why they want to see the inside of a raid. I can only pretend to understand it the same way you would i assume, because it seems like we dont have that kind of mentality. Maybe they just want to see the artwork? maybe just like you said before they want to go see the bosses room? maybe they want to go in the same footsteps that all those server first/world first people did? though at a much easier and slower pace. Maybe its kinda like when a world class athlete does a marathon or something and regular people do the same run and retrace that persons steps, but to the best of *their* ability. Because obviously a regular person wont be able to run as fast as that top athlete right? Now if they are doing it because they want better or equal loot as the real raiders but for less effort, i say screw those people. But people who just want to see the content, it would be nice if everybody had a chance to see it. EDIT: ohh and as far as "better to create something new". Why do that when you can reuse art and 3d assets? which would leave mob health/damage/abilities to be tweaked (as well as scaled down rewards). If people are happy in a 10man version of x89 where its just them and a frog then let them be happy. I think that a lot of people that run WoW LFR *know* that they are missing out on all the stuff that comes with normal/heroic raiding. | |} ---- ---- ---- At least on Entity, the LFG channel is used for this quite a bit. As for 10 mans, I'm in favor of creating 10 man content that is different from the current raid content. I think they could do a great "Kara" type dungeon. | |} ---- Perhaps. However, Carbine has shown it can make brilliant content when it focuses on hitting the target specifically. The raids are awesome and the shiphands are aweseome. I'd rather see them apply shiphand ideas to large groups designed for more casual players than see them try to "dumb down" their existing stuff targeted at those more interested in coordiation. | |} ---- So you want 20man Shiphands *and* 5man raids? :P But seriously though, Shiphands allow you to run 1-5 people right? and the stuff just scales? When you say "apply shiphand ideas to larger groups" isnt that kinda how WoW Flex raids work? I never did it but from what i remember you could have anywhere between 10 to 14 up to 25 people and the stuff scaled up or down as needed. http://wow.gamepedia.com/Flexible_Raid If you are in a guild or group of raiders where people make raids if they can instead of all the time a Flex or Shiphand system that goes up to 15 max players or something might work too. But i have a feeling that if Shiphands that go to 15 or 20 are based on shiphands people might not be as excited vs a flex/shiphand system being applied to raids and allowing it to scale down. I think its mostly psychological...like would they rather be a hardcore dungeoneer or a casual raider? | |} ---- ---- You don't even have to do that. All you have to do is ask Blizzard/SquareEnix/BioWare how many people per thousand customers play their raid content and then ask Carbine the same question, and without a doubt, Carbine will have a substantially smaller number. This means that Carbine are spending time and money developing content that on average is played by a smaller number of their customers. Raid finder is a system that is proven to work and it gives casual players a meaningful PvE endgame experience in the same manner as regular raiders. I don't really give a toss about the philosphical implications behind it, all I know is that players enjoy it and it would no doubt bring more players to WildStar which in the longterm would benefit the health of this game; what's more it in no way, shape or form affects the regular raiders. You can queue on WoW of FF for any raid content as any role and it doesn't take long at all to get a group which is just proof that players enjoy playing this type of content. | |} ---- It does if it forced the developers to develop fights under the constraints that they are scalable. | |} ---- You could also ask all those other companies how many players are doing their shiphands. Or adventures. Carbine has adopted a strategy of developing content specifically aimed at different types of players rather than trying to make one kind of content work at all levels. What I do know is that the causal players I'm around are having a blast doing shiphands and I don't hear them saying much about wanting to do raids. And the raiders are having a blast as well. In fact, everyone I know in game right now seems very satisfied and happy to be playing. The only thing that seems to be missing is more people because people don't know how much fun they are missing. | |} ---- Completely irrelevant. Carbine and Blizzard/SE both develop raid content. Assuming it takes both teams the same amount of time/resources to develop a raid, per percentage of players, more play Blizzards/SE raid content than play Carbines. This means that they are developing content more efficiently which is not only cheaper but also gives them extra resources to develop additional content. Hence why SE give players two new dungeons and a raid in a 3month patch instead of just a new dungeon & shiphands. | |} ---- ---- This is only true if the casual specific content in WS + raid content takes more time than creating raid content that can be scaled for both groups. We don't know this is true, and I'd say it's a faulty assumption. Nothing wrong with "a new dungeon & shiphands". Drop 4 had a lot of great stuff and it's been keeping myself and a lot of other people I know busy. Very few people need a new raid right now. Most of use are still working on the ones included at launch. I'd say all the casual folks enjoying vet shiphands right now are happy that Carbine didn't force them into LFR which is what would have happend if they used all of that Vet Shiphand development time on creating scalable raids. | |} ---- You've both stated and missed the point here. If you can't commit to a 20 man raid schedule, why on God's green Earth would you actually want to raid? If you're not interested in coordinating with anyone, what exactly does it matter whether there are 19 people around you or 4? Most of all, why are you disparaging 5 man content if raids are obviously too much coordination for you? Did doing things with 5 people suddenly become utterly insignificant? Is there some reason, in particular, you feel that people who aren't interested in 20 man coordination should not be satisfied with smaller group sizes? The big point here is, don't look at some nebulous group and say you can't even speculate why they'd want something you don't know that they actually want. You've stepped in to make this argument on behalf of them, even if you yourself don't find it feasible. You should know the answer to the question, "Why should five man content, which is puggable at a very difficult level in veteran dungeons and decreased in difficulty over Adventures and Shiphands to form tiers of involvement, not be good enough? Why should there not be just more puggable raid content in the open world?" If you want to step in and represent these players, you need to answer those questions, not ignore them. Because I think it's Carbine's policy so far to retain the content at differing levels of commitment and involvement, thus they don't seem interested in making a carbon copy raid for that very reason. If people don't want to deal with the logistics of 20 people, I think it's very fair to ask if they actually want to raid. Once the coordination is removed, there are no schedules, no friends, just a few Kleenex players randomly clumped together to do a the O'Douls version of GA, why does it seem to matter, as stated by your dismissal of them, whether there are 4 or 19 people in your group? I don't think there is any. I would much rather Carbine, if they feel their non-raiding PVE population needs more to do, simply make us a brand new 5-man dungeon, adventure, or Shiphand. Drop 4 gave us two new dungeons and a new shiphand. I'd much prefer that than getting a worthless version of GA, those can be directly tuned to be far more entertaining for non-raiders. UPG is better than a faceroll GA would ever be, and I'd rather have another of those than a tour-bus raid. | |} ---- Welcome to the forums! | |} ---- Hehe, yeah I know. Still sometimes there are ones where it appears as if there is some sort of actual communication occurring, and other times where various people, whether by nature or intent (some people are naturally stubborn, conversely it's a troll's intent to bait as long as possible), are simply talking past each other with no understanding reached. I suppose I was just commenting that it seems we'd reached the latter. | |} ---- Yeah. I fall into the stubborn category on days when we are regression testing at work and I spend a lot of time waiting on people :) It is actually interesting for me to read the perspectives of people who play this game in a completely different world from me. It can be frustrating, but it's also eye-opening that not every has had the same experience/perceptions as I have. What can be a little frustrating is other players who assume that their experience trumps my experience, when none of us actually have any numbers. But even with the frustration, it's actually kind of cool to me to know there is a whole segment of people out there enjoying this game who haven't stepped foot into a raid (because raiding and dungeons are really the reason I play this game). | |} ---- ---- ---- Well runic flux is what 3 plat? That's prohibitively expensive to roll ONE slot that isn't even guaranteed to be useful. Daily rep is still same grind. World Bosses are still an annoying part of attunement. Everything else improved. You can run vet dungeons much more successfully now as a casual person since the daily quest/weekly for dungeons and adventures means veterans that are well geared are running them. So I wouldn't say progression dies at Vet shiphands. It goes up to vet dungeons. What's more, veteran sanctuary of the swordmaiden drops really good loot now. It's ilv61 purple quality items left and right, the mount flairs drop much more frequently. SSM vet is easily the most worth it out of all the vet dungeons, and it's fun to boot. The problem is MMO's haven't really innovated with endgame content. They keep just overincentivizing raids, which leads to player burnout because honestly a lot of people get sick of doing the same content several nights a week for 3+ hours. There's no variety of incentivized content. Wildstar also messed up because it adopted WoW's terrible gear based PvP, which makes accessing the format a bad experience in getting farmed by other players due to gear disparity (power disparity piled on top of skill disparity). PvP is a format that is very lasting for games unlike raids, because PvP is spontaneous and dynamic. There's very little of it scripted (you get bored of a raid pretty quick after having it on farm, and many cases even before that). Look at all the hours poured on mobas and other pvp games. It's not like the games offer nice graphics or wonderful storytelling, but they have long shelf-lives because the content is player generated. Opponents change and adapt. Hopefully they'll rethink the stupid gear gating in a PvP format and implement some nice incentives for PvP. | |} ---- It's 3 plat based on the market- and pretty much every slot will end up being useful. At least, that's the case on the classes I play. It's expensive enough that it makes you think if you really want to make the change- but you can earn the amount in a few hours of play. Seems like it gives us something to work for. | |} ---- ---- Taking an instance and releasing it in 4-5 difficulties is a little cheesy i think, but a little more efficient then releasing 4-5 different instances each with their own difficulty. With the first thing you save on development time/resources because you are recycling a lot of stuff. About the only thing they would have to do is tweak health, damage and if necessary remove or change certain fight mechanics. With the second thing I do think that it is cool that we get 4-5 different instances each targeting a specific group of players. But i just hope that the devs can sustain that type of content development. I thought that the unique quest voiceover work in SWTOR was kinda cool too, but then stuff happened and they couldnt do it anymore. Now i believe you get most of your quests in text box format (if you are lucky) or at worse you will get your quests from a console that doesnt even talk and has the text box. I know that those are quests and are completely different, but i was just using that as an example of how a feature at launch ended up not becoming sustainable. But anyways i just think that the option for content between the highest tier 5 mans and 20man normals would be great (assuming there is a demand for it). I only mentioned downgrading a 20m because like i mentioned in the previous para that would recycle a lot of assets. Your idea of taking shiphands and allowing grouping up to 10 or 15 might actually be better. I'm guessing that since group size in shiphands can be 1-5 that the group comp at 5 players doesnt matter? so in an upscaled 10 or 15 man version group comp might still not matter? that would work as long as it scratches the right itch that people get from wanting to raid but not wanting that raid difficulty. Like how people want fights that are like 4horsemen, twin emps or council type fights...but completely faceroll. And i have a feeling that people will *cupcake* about the rewards even if they are appropriate for a 10man shiphand since they arent "real raid rewards" lol. But i dont really care about those kind of people so whatever hehe. | |} ----